Nashville. Scratching the surface.
Emmy award winning songwriter Andrew Rollins and songwriter and broadcaster Alison Craig talk about the songs, the songwriters, the highs, lows, heartbreaks and beyond of Nashville.
Guests give their insight into the process, the town and the highs and lows within.
Andrew has 9 songs on Nashville The Show and a million stories to tell.
Find out where and how some of the best known songs in the world were written.
Meet some of the extraordinary people who are working and living there now.
40 years of songwriting experience and he lays it bare.
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Nashville. Scratching the surface.
Ep. 7 Rock N Roll lawyer to the stars for 40 years Steven Lowy - buckle up this is a cracker.
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Steven Lowy has represented rock n roll legends, artists, songwriters and producers for 40 yrs and he gives great story. Some of the names include Ronnie Wood, Third Eye Blind, John Cougar, The Beat, Jane’s Addiction, Mary Wilson: George Thorogood; Canned Heat, Pat Boone, The Grass Roots, Jacob Lutrell, Jennifer Hudson; Gospel (e.g. Mano Hanes) Jazz (e.g. Chet Baker, Bill Evans, Dee Dee Bridgewater, Shadowfax); R&B: Louis Price, Mary Wilson; Hip Hop; American Songbook (Jules Styne); Folk; EDM, Swamp Pop, and Reggae, as well as many record and publishing companies who have put out and broken major artists (e.g. Shelter Records: Tom Petty, Dwight Twilly, Leon Russel, J.J Cale; RBC: Gucci Mane, Chief Keef; Dangerous Records: Bloods + Cripps; Criterion Music, Warner/Chappell and Wemar Music.
https://nashville.buzzsprout.com
Welcome along to Nashville Scratching the Surface. My name's Alison Craig, and Andrew Rollins is my co-host. We are inviting a very special man into the studio for our first podcast of 2026. His name is Stephen Lowy, and he is one of the best known and respected music lawyers in the world. Some of his incredible clients include Ronnie Wood, Jane's Addiction, George Thorgood, Cann Heat, Pat Boone, Chet Baker, Bill Evans, Tom Petty. I could go on, um, but I will let you listen to him tell his story. It is fascinating. And he has been Andrew's lawyer for 30 years, which, as you know, means we will get some really interesting stories. So thanks for joining us. As I say, you're in tune with Nashville Scratching the Surface, and a very happy new year from myself and Andrew. Enjoy.
SPEAKER_01:Can't believe it. Uh you know, represented a lot of uh, you know, my my mentor was a man named Danny Cordell, who started Shelter Records, but when he was 20, he he produced uh Whiter Shade of Pale, Poco Harem, and then he did T-Rex, and he did, I think, Booty Blues, I think, and then he discovered and developed Tom Petty and produced his first two or three records. And he and Leon Russell had Shelter Records, and you know, so they had you know, Leon Russell, they had Tom Petty, Phoebe Snow, Freddie King, JJ Cale. Uh, I mean, he influenced so many careers, and he he was sort of a mentor for me uh into the music business. Um just a brilliant producer and and presario uh and and dreamer, basically.
SPEAKER_03:And did you go did you go in go meet him as a trainee lawyer or as an artist? Or what did you first get together?
SPEAKER_01:Uh I had a friend who's who's in his family uh used to own Warner Brothers, and his his his father was a big uh film producer and had had run Warner Brothers. Um and so uh I I took uh I took my friend's father out to lunch, you know.
SPEAKER_00:Uh and uh tell um Allison the name of that person you took to lunch.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, oh, it was it was uh Kate Hyman's father. Okay, if you know Kate. She's a longtime music executive. Okay, but but her brother Greg was one of my best friends, and Greg was a very wild kid, right? His father was, I think, happy that his son had a semi-respectable friend, you know, who is now a lawyer, uh, and so was happy to, you know, have lunch with me. And so he referred to me to um the husband of his wife's best friend from English school. She was an English, an English rose. Um, and um that was Nick Cowan, was running Denny Cordell's company, Shelter Records. He was a he had been a UK uh solicitor, representative of the Beatles and people like that, and and and was Denny's mate and was running his company. So so Nick hired me and took me in, and I started doing like really low-level stuff for shelter, you know, and then it got more and more things, you know. We we we did together. I got involved in more and more deals, and he opened up uh roller disco with a stage in the middle that bands performed on, like Berlin and bands like that. And uh it was called Flipper's Roller Boogie Palace. Um and it was uh Flipper was actually um Ian Ross, who actually is is fairly well known in the UK. Uh and his daughter is Liberty, Liberty Ross, who married uh Jimmy Ivine and was a model for a while. And uh so he he was a character, uh, or he is, I suppose. Uh so I I got so I I had known him uh before I met my first wife who was English. And uh, but so I was already involved with him for a long for a while, and and uh just you know, like he he kind of took me under his wing and showed me a lot of stuff about how how artists were dealt with and can be productive and how you can get a deal done. He had nerves of steel, you know, uh in negotiations. And uh there's brilliant. I mean, it sounds like he he had such excellent taste and he was such a brilliant uh motivator for artists. You know, he wasn't one of these hands-on producers who was telling them getting into the music. He pretended like he didn't know anything about music, but he really did know a lot about music. Uh, but he was had this sort of imperious nature, but a very tender, warm nature as well, right? And and so he could get people to perform at a higher level. He he he was able to say, you know, to Tom Petty, no, no, I'm afraid that won't do. Yep, that's that's not good enough, right? And and you know, and and and have the relationship still progress and have the person strive to get better, which is uh, you know, it it's there's different kinds of producers, you know, there's the kind that really get in the wheeze of the music, there's kinds that are the the the artist's best friend, you know, uh, and there are kinds that say, go sit in the corner, I'll do it, you know. Uh and and he he was one of the ones that really concentrated on the music and the artists in getting the most out of them, which was just fascinating. And he had such great taste and very, very rootsy taste as well, you know, which which conformed to my own tastes. You know, I'm I'm now kind of very big into Louisiana music. Um I had an artist called Tommy McLean that uh had a record last year um with Nick Lowe, uh co-wrote a couple songs and Alvis Costello's on one of the songs, and uh 85-year-old guy, he's he's since passed away, but that's just a gorgeous record, and it's got that Louisiana swamp pop feel to it. Uh and you know, it just did a deal for uh the Rolling Stones did a cover of Clifton Chinier um song for a Clifton Chinier uh tribute record for scholarship fund. And you got Mick Jagger singing in French and playing harmonica of a Clifton Chinier song, and Keith and Ronnie are on it playing guitar, but you know, with with a great Louisiana according player, Steve Riley, right? And so they're not they're not making it, they they're rocking a little bit, but they're very respectful to the the the uh local you know idiom uh of the songs, and it's crazy. Check it out. Um Rolling Stone is Due Zydeco.
SPEAKER_03:You're in tune with Nashville Scratching the Surface with Andrew Rollins, Stephen Lowy, and Alison Craig.
SPEAKER_00:Told you, Allison. Steven's been my lawyer for, oh my god, over 30 years, I think.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, but I I moisturize. I I'm an I'm a music lawyer. I mean, I do entertainment law. I've done a lot of film work and TV, some TV stuff, but I'm known as a music lawyer. I teach a course at a law school in music publishing um at Southwestern Law School, and and uh I was president of the association of music publishers for a couple terms and on their board for decades. And uh I've been involved in um, you know, I was uh wrote one of the writers of an amicus brief in the Supreme Court Grockster case, which was a seminal uh copyright file sharing case, which came up with the concept of contributory copyright infringement, uh, which was a big boon for songwriters and publishers. Uh uh but you know, I've I've been kind of amongst in the trenches, if not the front lines, of the battle of uh art against technology, basically, because technology for the last 25, 30 years has used art to capitalize their businesses and launch their businesses like Apple Music uh was really a loss leader to cell phones, uh and uh you know resulted in a decimation of earnings for uh uh music publishers and songwriters and artists. Um so you know, we've managed to somewhat, we're always behind them, you know, and it takes takes uh several years to catch up with them and try to get some sort of uh economic uh equity uh out of the situation. I'm not sure I don't think we're really really quite there yet, as I'm sure you've heard of, you know, how you know a million streams is worth about five thousand dollars, as which is uh which is not enough. It doesn't replace the kind of income that songwriters and publishers and artists have, you know, we're used to getting. I mean, we used to do these incredible deals for artists where they would get developed by record companies, they would be guaranteed at least two albums, sometimes three. You get advances starting at like$250,000 and escalating from there with each album. Uh you know, now artists have to come to a record company with a finished artist and a million followers and several million streams before they even can get their attention. And it's you know, we're they're all uh plus on top of that, the industry is is a slave to the social media uh metrics of popularity, which tend to uh sort of lean towards uh the lowest common denominator in terms of taste and um you know genre and that sort of thing. So, you know, I've plenty to still complain about.
SPEAKER_03:The the the advent of AI and the way things are changing so incredibly quickly on a day-to-day basis, it must be very difficult to keep on top of all that.
SPEAKER_01:It's it's uh as an old as an aging person, it's particularly difficult. You know, as a digital immigrant, it's particularly difficult. Uh but the law has is constantly changing. And I think that's one of the reasons why I started teaching law school so I can make sure I'm staying up, I really know what I'm talking about. I'm staying up to date and staying current on things. Uh and now with the, you know, now the big topic is AI, of course.
SPEAKER_03:No, I just I'm interested in the young uh artists and songwriters and and you know, people that you're teaching when you're at university. Uh, you know, is there still that drive for them to go out there and try and make music? Because clearly they're gonna, you know, as you suggested there, starving is probably, you know, the most likely outcome.
SPEAKER_01:Um yes. Well, I I don't think it's I think true artists don't have a choice. You know, it's it's a compulsion, it it's it's a it's a a voice that they that that they they have to raise, you know, a vision that they have to create. Most of my friends are musicians and and artists, and many of them are are young. And uh yeah, I mean they're all you know, they all you know look upon a very bleak landscape, but are not compelled to stop doing what they're doing, you know. It's it's it's a sad state of affairs, but you know, uh, you know, the the people need music to fall in love and to grieve and to deal with their stress and and to to enjoy life. Uh and um thank God for that, you know, and and I, you know, I I don't I don't consider AI, I mean I consider it a threat economically, but uh I I think there's always gonna be a need for original uh you know original statements out there. Uh uh, you know, and and I mean in terms of my own business, you know, people say, oh, you know, AI could put you out of business, you know, and and you know, people country say, you know, yeah, I can just get a contract from AI and all that. And I say, great, you know, go ahead. But you know, you know, my job is telling people stories. You know, that's all as I say, you know, it's it's based on narrative truth. And every story is different, every contract is different, you know, and and and every type of music is different. And what you know, what does it take to keep an artist productive and and and and making music? Um, that's always, you know, the my foremost concern. And uh, you know, originality will still be original. You know, you can't replace originality, is my feeling.
SPEAKER_00:I I wanted to interject something. Stephen said, you know, the the the be very careful with what you say about music publishing. And remember when I discussed with you, Allison, I I have to make some corrections to some things that I said. And one was I said, you can't copyright a lyric. No, that's not true. Yes, you can. You can't copyright a title. Right. Like I could write a song called Lion Eyes, or I could write a song called Hotel Yesterday.
SPEAKER_01:Right, write a song called write a song called Yesterday.
SPEAKER_00:Right.
SPEAKER_01:You'll get a lot of mistaken royalties from ASCAP if you do that. You know, right.
SPEAKER_00:So and I think Steven can go into the weeds about it and really give what constitutes plagiarism.
SPEAKER_03:Yes, an interesting question that as a new songwriter, I would put myself in that category. Um, and there are only so many notes as they say, so right.
SPEAKER_01:Well, you know, I mean it's it's really it's really a case-by-case situation. You know, it's really hard to come up with with hard and fast rules, you know. I mean, there's several it uh elements to a copyright case, you know, that there's access, you know, and then there's, you know, did they did they have access? Is it was it copied, right? Was there copying? Uh and and uh oh well before you even get there, is what is being protected copyrightable subject matter, even. But so so if it's a title, it's not, right? But if it's you know, if it's a an expression, it is. Uh you know, does a lot uh rise the level of original expression is really the issue. And and that, you know, is case by case basis. I mean, like the song We Will Rock You, you know, the beginning, boom, boom, bop, boom, boom, bop, right? That that kind of makes that song, right? And maybe that songwriter only only contributed that bit to that song, but that doesn't mean that they should be parsed out to, you know, the number of minutes of the song that contained or something like that, right? You know, in that context, I would say that is copyrightable subject matter, you know, as part of the greater whole, of course. You know, so uh it really it really is on a on a case-by-case basis. Uh and um, you know, you what if what you do to an existing work is transformative, that's kind of the operative word, you know, the words of art, uh, it is not uh an infringement. So, you know, it's it's really it's very you have to be very cautious when you evaluate these cases and and look at the underlying economic factors involved. Uh not not in terms of of the legal merits, but whether it's worth pursuing or not. Um in this country, particularly, litigation is extremely expensive and unattainable for most people, uh, because it's you know it's a commitment of hundreds of thousands of dollars, particularly if you're if you're suing a well-funded defendant. So, you know, there's a lot of commercial practical realities that one has to face and looking at those things. But I find that as as uh by the way, I I really enjoyed your interview with uh with Andrew that I I listened to last week. Uh but but you know, I I think that you know, the statement about just being in the room, right, and people contributing to a whole, uh the the the the real professional songwriters do not try to parse out, you know, say, oh, you're only entitled to this percentage. There is some of that in the hip-hop world that goes on because there are so many collaborators involved. Uh you know, that it just makes practical sense. I mean, I was once representing a label that put out records by the bloods of the Crips, and you know, that they would hand in who the songwriters on the song were. Sometimes there'd be 20 songwriters uh claiming 300% of the song, you know. So, you know, uh, you know, that that's kind of a you know, an extreme, but but the real you know, day-to-day tourneyman songwriters and artists, they're not that worried about people stealing or people. I mean, they they when people steal, they they worry about it, but but they know how to take something and make it their own expression. And uh, you know, the people are involved in creating with them, you know, they want the freedom there for everybody to contribute what they can contribute, and they're not they don't want to cast a paw over the session. And and there are there are some notable, you know, people that got free rides, believe me, by you know, there there were there were A and R men that were in the room at the time a hit song was was written that were wound up getting credit on it, you know.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, that those things do happen, but you know uh give us some of the give us some of the most famous cases then that people will go, oh my god.
SPEAKER_01:I'd rather not, actually. I I I I have to live in this town, you know.
SPEAKER_00:Well, I don't I don't want to mention I always go back to what Desmond Child taught me in the very beginning. If you've got three songwriters in the room, the that song wouldn't have become what it became without those three people. Sure. Absolutely, and one might have only contributed 20%, but that 20% um was the the glue that put it all together. Waddy Wachtel, who wrote um uh werewolves of London with Warren Zevon, um and and he also wrote a song with James Taylor and J.D. Southern called Her Town 2. And the only thing that Wadi wrote in it was the bridge, but that bridge pulled that whole song together, you know.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and you know, it's interesting. Collaborations are very interesting because many of them do uh have a healthy amount of tension to them as well, you know, particularly when you're dealing with guitar players and lead singers. Uh, you know, I mean, uh I I I've been paid hundreds of thousands of dollars just to represent a guitar player or lead vocalist and negotiating with their guitarist or lead vocalist, right? In in a band, you know, so uh and and it's uh you know, it's really not uncommon for there to be, particularly in bands, for it to be the creative tension that really makes the ultimate work work, you know, and you know, it's um It's that difference that they have that is, you know, that the noise each other, right? That can actually make the work great, right? Because it's not too much of one thing, it's not too sweet, it's not too bitter. It's you know, together it works, you know, it's it's got empathy and and and and evokes uh you know real emotions, which are never that clear, right? You know, yeah. Uh there's always some questions behind one's emotions.
SPEAKER_03:Um very famous bands that have just blown apart because you know, of whatever they call it, musical differences, but created differently a lot of them end up presumably in court.
SPEAKER_01:Yes. Yeah, they do, yeah. Some of them do, and some of them move on to other acts, and you know, uh, you know, uh I I've represented the beat since 1982. Um no one hears the English beat, you know.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah. One of my favorite bands, actually, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, they they they you know they broke up and they became fine and campbells and general public, right? Um, so you know, they went on, you know, to lead other lives. But uh, you know, bands are you know are very delicate creatures, you know. It's really hard to keep a band together. And and and there are ways of designing uh collaboration agreements between bands to help keep bands together. Um, you know, you you'll see, you know, I've seen bands that, you know, when they were young, they were they were, you know, very idealistic, uh, you know, communists, basically, right? And they'd be, oh, well, just share everything, right? Well, then when they get older and they have wives and kids, and they realize they were really the main songwriter. They, you know, they really wrote that song, and now they're splitting it five ways, right? It's okay you're splitting one person, maybe, but when you're getting 20% instead of a hundred or fifty percent, uh, you know, and and you've got kids to put through schools and and and a couple ex-wives, you know, uh it's just you're a little less idealistic at that point, you know.
SPEAKER_03:So uh so they retrospectively kind of claim a different percentage on songs. Is that quite a common thing to no, it's very uncommon.
SPEAKER_01:It's just all you're you're left with is bitterness, bitterness and resentment, usually that persists for decades, you know, into several generations, even.
SPEAKER_03:You're in tune with Nashville scratching the surface, Stephen Lowy, one of the world's best-known music lawyers, chatting to Andrew Rollins and myself, Allison Craig.
SPEAKER_01:I mean, I've represented a lot of estates over the years, uh, and that's really interesting work. Um you kind of sometimes go through various stages of grief with estates. Uh like for instance, I represented the estate of Bill Evans and Shet Baker and uh many others. Um, and of course, those were tragically flawed geniuses uh with severe substance abuse problems. Um but uh you know, it's oftentimes when they die, their families, you know, who have probably some you know pathology and dysfunction themselves, you know, occasionally, but they're at least, you know the you know, the detrigist of having been involved with a a person with that kind of affliction, uh, you know, takes its toll. And you see that going through stages of first like stun, numb confusion, and then it kind of morphs into anger and rage. And then you if you if you work things that get some order to it, you can help them achieve some resolution so that the estate can pretty much run itself uh uh after that. And it's very interesting work, but you know, I mean one of my favorite favorite stories uh is uh how uh I I have family in Argentina. Uh my mother's born there, and and so I go there occasionally. And I was going down there and and um Bill Evans, I don't know if you know Bill Evans is a very seminal jazz pianist who really created the way jazz music was played, you know, though his with his very distinctive chord voicings um in particular. But he was on kind of blue, the Miles Davis huge jazz record. Um but he he's you know he's a musician's musician, basically. Um and uh so I was going down to Argentina, and his widow said, Um, you know, he had a really good friend down there who was also a composer, band leader, tango, you know, tango composer and band leader down there. Uh and but Bill spent a couple weeks down there, and I'd like you to see if you can meet this guy and see what he remembers about trip Bill's trip down there. And I said, Okay. So I called my cousin down there and I said, You know who this guy is? She said, Oh, yeah, he's a really famous tango, you know, artist, band leader, composer, and he's head of the the artist rights, you know, uh music artist rights, you know, society in in Argentina. He's a very important guy, you know, he's in his 80s. I said, Well, you think you'd get me a meeting with him? I had a meeting in like 15 minutes, he'd probably be back. So I go down there and I go up to the penthouse of this old you know office building in Buenos Aires, and they usher me into a conference room with nice little coffee and cookies. And this old guy comes in, he tells me a story how Bill came to Argentina, right? And you know, he he was strung out, so they you know it's really difficult to score for him, he's a very repressive regime, but they had this big tango complex in Buenos Aires with a big theater and different salons and things like that, along with it. And so they had Bill in one of the salons, right? And you know, by the end of like a week, everybody was leaving the big theaters and like trying to cram into his salon. And so, you know, Bill had to finally leave. It was you know very difficult kind of having him there, and so he left. After he left, uh this composer told his band, and this is a fairly large band, he says, I've made, I've rearranged my compositions and I want you to play them this way. You're gonna think that it's going to sound dissonant, but just trust me and do it that way. But what he was done, what he had done was he taken the way Bill Evans voiced his chords and he'd applied that to his own compositions, uh, and how his compositions' chords were voiced, right? With diminished seven, you know, metadance or whatever they're called, right? Uh, and you know, it sounded fantastic, and you know, everybody loved it. And then other tango artists started doing the same thing in Argentina. So here's a story of an American artist, right, going to Argentina for two weeks and changing the way the national music, the tango, is played in Argentina. And the guy almost had tears in his eyes when he's telling me the story. I just thought that was such an impactful piece of information.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:But it kind of just shows you the power of music, right? And and originality, you know, and I AI could not come up with that.
SPEAKER_03:No, and also the openness of you know accepting that as being a better ultimate end than what it was previously.
SPEAKER_01:So it's just that you know, being open to making it yeah, being having the vision to to accept, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I mean imagine having come at it from as you say, from studying art yourself and being in, you know, the the Irish uh diaspora uh, which you know, having spent quite a bit of time there myself, that's like it's a fun, fun place. But that must be great, you know, to be on the side of the artist and understand the mentality and the and the you know the the personality of the artist, having been one yourself, when you're coming at it with the logic side of the brain as well.
SPEAKER_01:So that must be and and the and the tactical side as well. Because you know, I I I mean, I I'm always you know thinking about who's out to get everybody, you know, too, you know.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. Can you I bet you can spot one pretty quickly, anyway.
SPEAKER_01:I mean, I'm you know, uh I well I I always start out nice, you know. Uh it it's you know, I I you know I I'm I'm I'm really uh everybody knows I'm a very sweet guy, until I'm not, you know. So uh you know, and um, you know, that's that's my style. You know, some people want a a junkyard dog, you know. I I'm not that guy, you know. Uh yeah, but they say, you know, lawyers get the clients they deserve. And I I have the first client I ever had, is still my client. He wrote the song for the beach boys uh in John Cougar, you know. So uh but uh he was also my teammate at you know in college.
SPEAKER_03:So but yeah, to to still be together after all these years on a professional basis is a a great deal of good things about a man, I would say. Or a woman.
SPEAKER_01:Well well, it's really gives me a great deal of pride to be like the first person that somebody calls when something significant is happening in their life. Um and I can say that for you know that there's several people like that, you know, and it's a great honor. And you know, now I'm doing you know a lot of deals for my clients' kids, you know, who are also creative people. Um you know, having grown up in creative families. And and uh, you know, that's that's why I would really have no desire ever retiring, is it makes me feel like I have not just taking up space, you know. And you know, doing it for a long time, you get to see the results of your work, you know. You see the people you told them don't do that, you know. Oftentimes the best advice you give people is to say no, you know. And many lawyers want to get a deal done, you know, and sometimes it it's just don't do it, you know, hang on to your rights. Is usually my my advice is usually hang on to your rights. I mean, it's just as simple as that, and that has proven to be the best advice in almost every single case.
SPEAKER_03:Interesting. Just any artist can have their head turned by uh you know a particular offer or an opportunity. So long it goes out the window, and presumably that's when you sit them down and say no.
SPEAKER_01:Artists just artists just want to make music, filmmakers just want to make their film, and and they'll sign anything to just be doing their music, right? And you have to give them a longer-term perspective on things, you know. I mean, you can't generalize because many artists are are are you know all artists are different, and you know, some are too too retentive about what they're willing to share and to give and things like that. Uh but but usually that comes from inexperience and and and uh paranoia based on just not knowing what's enough to to feel comfortable, which is which is you know uh normal, natural self-preservation, you know, instinct. Uh you know, so sometimes you you have to talk sometimes you have to talk people off the ledge, you know, and saying that you know they're not surrounded by assassins at the moment, anyway. Uh sometimes you have to say, no, no, that the the you know, the this you might love this guy now, but you know, you know, it's it's a long life, you know, and you're gonna have other people you love in your life that you're probably gonna love more than this guy, you know.
SPEAKER_03:So you're a part therapist then as well.
SPEAKER_01:You really want him having half of your income for the rest of your life, you know, without the benefits, you know.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:But you know, sometimes later in a career, you know, way late in career, you know, it does make sense to sell. Uh, you know, and it comes down to uh sometimes just making ensuring the proper stewardship of one's legacy. Right so that it it's not what doesn't wind up in a squabbling family where where the the assets can be forgotten or denigrated. And you know, with with with you know legacy artists, you have to constantly be introducing new artists to the material and curate the material so it's present, it's always present in the in the culture, you know, accessible.
SPEAKER_03:Um yeah, I mean that's it's massive. That that sort of side of the the business must be you know mind-boggling. We're talking about the you know, some of these major bands like the stones, the beatles, uh, you know, their catalogue of songs, and it's just yeah, absolutely mind-boggling how Earth you organize something as vast and disparate, really.
SPEAKER_01:Well, there's there's a lot of you know, there's a lot to look after because you know that there's so many rights involved, not just the the songs, but the the recordings, the the name and likeness, the the the story of their life, all these things, you know, have have potential to generate income and cross-pollinate the the different rights. Uh, you know, it's it's all different.
SPEAKER_03:Sure. I mean, you must break ground, new ground all the time with it, because there's you know, I imagine there's so many nuances in each case that you know always keeps you on your toes.
SPEAKER_01:Every every every client's different, you know, every day is different, really. I mean uh you know, and and and it's just it's strange, you know. Some clients you have to argue with and yell at some clients you have to console, you know. Uh you know it's it's great work. I mean, I I really love it. You know, it's the fact that there's so many stories to tell, you know, for me, uh and and it gives me the opportunity to be creative, uh and and and adopt different characters and personalities myself, you know. Sometimes I you know I get to not be that eloquent or nice or you know, sometimes uh I'm I'm more nice than I tend to be, uh oftentimes, actually. But uh but uh you know it's it's fun. I you know, I'm I I was a fencer for 60 years until my body finally gave out. And so you know, it's that kind of you know, that that's kind of an art as well. It's a conversation, but it's a fight, you know. And you know, you're always thinking of economy of motion and and results and you know preparation to get to the results. Um and so it's been a very facile metaphor for me in in my profession. Um, and you know, it it kind of guides me in terms of what I react to and what I don't react to, you know. I mean, you you don't react to a faint, you know, if you if you can help it, you know. Uh but but if somebody is you know close enough to hurt you, then you react, you know.
SPEAKER_02:Sure, sure. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And I see a lot of young lawyers and people that react to everything, right? And and that's like, you know, in music, that's like failure to modulate, right? Where everything's turned up to 11, right? You know, you you limit yourself by doing that.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And and and after a while, people are just rolling their eyes. You know, I've had I've I've seen judges, you know, rolling their eyes at my opposing counsel because you know, everything is uh you know, World War III.
SPEAKER_03:But again, I suppose that's the benefit of experience and you know knowledge that you've accrued after all these years that you have that calm demeanor, right?
SPEAKER_01:You know, it is great to have something where age is not a handicap. You know, it's great here. I just came back from Japan where old people are actually respected.
SPEAKER_03:So, you know, they live they live a long time in Japan, don't they?
SPEAKER_01:I didn't stop moisturizing though, you know.
SPEAKER_03:I love it. It's a really pleasure to meet you, and uh you know, thank you for your time because it's a lot of those stories are absolutely legendary. We'll maybe get you on again.
SPEAKER_01:But maybe I can be big in big in Scotland now, huh?
SPEAKER_03:Well, yes.
SPEAKER_00:It's just yeah Allison and and her husband have three restaurants in Scotland.
SPEAKER_03:In Edinburgh, yeah. My husband's got restaurants in Edinburgh, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, really? Uh any particular any particular kind of restaurant?
SPEAKER_03:Uh well there's it's kind of Scottish, actually. Scottish restaurants, you know, we serve local uh you know food basically. It's uh they're called howies. Uh so it's uh yeah, we you know, you get your venison and you get your pheasant, and we do a lot of game in the game season and a lot of lobsters and season. That's fun. I'm a foodie. Are you? Oh right, okay. Well, I mean, I don't know if you've got any plans to be in Scotland, but you know, you can count yourself on for dinner on me if you get there.
SPEAKER_01:Hopefully, yeah. Well, you know, we go to Ireland occasionally, you know, there's there's a horse race named after Denny Cordell every year. Uh in in Ireland, uh in in Kilkenny, where right right by County Carlo, uh Gowern racetrack. And uh they just had it last month. Uh and so every every few years we go and we you know get together with all the Cordells and and some other Grant Glenn Hansard is you know part of that crew, and and uh um yeah, it's kind of a rock and roll Irish zany crowd. Yeah, it's funny when I first lived in in Ireland when I was 20. Uh most of my friends were you know poets and and Irish Irish, right? Uh and then uh when I when I uh would go and visit Denny, because he he left the music business and went to Ireland to breed and train racehorses, right? And he had some success. Uh he went back and worked for Ireland for a while where he signed the cranberries, but you know that that was kind of his main thing then. And he sadly died fairly young of leukemia, and they named his horse race after him. But what I found was that that most of his friends in Ireland were the Anglo-Irish, right? As opposed to the Irish, as you probably know, they're it's like a parallel universe in Ireland. They don't have a terribly lot to do with each other, you know, and uh, you know, it is it's interesting.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I've I every time I go.
SPEAKER_01:See the different the different cultures, you know, there yeah.
SPEAKER_03:I just I just love Ireland. The first time I got there, actually, I thought to myself, I wish to God I'd got here about 20 years beforehand, you know, because I just absolutely loved it. Anyway, subsequently I found out I'm 19% Irish, so that's probably why.
SPEAKER_01:Well, you know, when I was at when I was 20, I was a poet and I was in poetry readings at Dublin where they were rowdy affairs, right? And there were some great poets there.
SPEAKER_03:I mean, I was shite, but you know, that's very Scottish shite.
SPEAKER_01:You know, they were great, but um uh so I I was actually in a poetry reading with Seamus Seamus Heaney, who wound up winning the Nobel Prize in Literature, but funnily enough, he he was he was heckled by the local Dublin poets because he was from Derry, right? So it's kind of interesting that he got his revenge. But you know, it kind of brings me to a different subject, and and then perhaps we need to wrap up, but uh, I don't want to go too long here for you. But uh you know, I I found that there's there's these little enclaves of of fertile talent, you know, whether it's you know Louisiana, you know, in music or or Portland, you know, Seattle Runge, or you know, all these little you know, communities, right? Regional communities, usually particularly, uh, that can be very fertile ground for the creation. Of some great music, so many great musicians and creators in these areas that you probably will never hear of, you know, unless you go there. Uh you know, I know I've found a whole bunch of them just going down to Louisiana. Um, but these small communities tend to they don't support each other, the artists in those communities, you know, and these small communities, you know, you you see a lot of instead of building each other up, they're often turning each other down, you know. And that's something I've I've become kind of attuned to somewhat lately, you know, is to see that it's a shame to see that, you know.
SPEAKER_03:Um, I mean there's the Glasgow-Edinburgh thing, you know, the East West thing, but uh generally speaking, maybe it's because it's quite a small, you know, population, I guess. They seem to be quite a quite a supportive bunch, but that's really interesting. Yeah, because you'd have thought all being interested in the same world that you know it would be of any everybody's benefit to be supportive.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, the world, the world they're in is so small, you know, that it's uh you know, I mean, it's it's like academic politics, you know. It's you know, it's so vicious because so little is at stake. Um but uh but you know, it's just a shame. And I've I've I've told some clients, I say, you know, the only way you're gonna make it is to get out of there, you know, you take what you got and export it because they don't have that anywhere else, you know.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01:So uh if you talk and people like it, so you know.
SPEAKER_03:Well, I mean, I'm sure you know, and and if you you're talking about spending a bit of time in Louisiana, give us a few names of people that we should keep our ears and uh eyes open for from that neck of the woods.
SPEAKER_01:Well, check out Tommy McClain's record, uh I ran down every dream, because he's got a voice like absolute pure honey and gold mixed together. Um and it's beautifully produced and and you know, co-written by CeCe Adcock, who's kind of major mover and shaker down there, and he's the one that put together the Rolling Stones, um, Clifton Chine. Uh right. You know, that that's listen to that that record, the Clifton Chine tribute record, uh, because it's got Lucinda Williams on it, it's got uh it's got uh Taj Mahal, I think, and and you know, some other people. And uh so you know, I mean, down in that area, I mean Steve Riley is like this incredible, you know, uh according player. One I'm I guarantee that you've probably never heard of is a guy named Quentron, Q E N T R O N, and he's just a really very innovative, uh, you know, crazy artist, songwriter. It's not typical, you know, Louisiana sound at all, but you know, uh I mean you go to these, you know, little juke joints and just hear this incredible Zydeco band, you know, you just go crazy. Uh I I don't remember all the names of all of them, but I love uh uh what's his name? Um Keith uh oh god, he's one of my favorites. You know that uh Zydeco is really kind of like pop music, you know. Uh it's it's really very poppy. I didn't realize that. Uh yeah, Keith Frank. Keith Frank.
SPEAKER_03:Keith Frank, okay.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I I love Keith Frank. Yeah, he is although it's great.
SPEAKER_03:It's great to have a few names, you know. We can uh encourage people to indulge, and you know people and signs they've not had an opportunity to well.
SPEAKER_01:I mean, Cece Hancock's you know he's a great songwriter, producer, guitar player, and and he actually comes to UK a lot. He's got a lot of UK connections. Uh and he plays in London a lot, places like that.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, great.
SPEAKER_01:He's got yeah, CC Hancock and the Lafayette Marquis, I think they're called. Uh but check out Keith Frank, because he's he's a monster. He's he's giant.
SPEAKER_03:Thanks so much, Stephen. It's been a pleasure to meet you. And uh Right.
SPEAKER_01:Well, thank you for your time. Thank you for letting me hear the sound of my own voice for so long.
SPEAKER_03:Well, wasn't that great? That was Stephen Lowy, as you will have gathered by now, one of the world's best known and respected uh music lawyers. So an absolute pleasure to spend time with him. And we'll get him back another time. You've been in tune with Nashville scratching the surface. Until next time.
unknown:Bye.
